Mesoamerican history enthusiast/consulting; Pokken, Gash/Zatch Bell, Halo, Digimon, DBZ, Sonic Adventure 2, Asura's Wrath, JJBA & G Gundam, Copyright reformist
Joined April 2010
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MajoraZ retweeted
"New Mexico" was also called that before the country of Mexico was named "Mexico", so this is extra silly!
New Mexico is named that after the island of Mexico and the capital of the Aztec Empire, Tenochtitlan, also known as Mexico-Tenochtitlan because it was on said island
If you wanna be technical, New Mexico only became a state in 1912, but that area was named "New Mexico" as early as the 1590s as the Spanish province of Santa Fe de Nuevo México, which in turn may have derived the "Mexico" portion from the Spanish colonial territory of "Reino de México", which was established in the late 1520, and that was in turn named after Mexico-Tenochtitlan and the island of Mexico.
At some point (I am actually not sure when exactly) the whole valley that Tenochtitlan was located in (which formed the central core of the Aztec empire and at contact, had ~50 other major Aztec cities and a few hundred smaller towns/villages) became known as the "Valley of Mexico", and then later it was adopted as the name of the country of Mexico as a whole when it achieved independence in 1821
See the attached image for reference re: the Valley of Mexico and Tenochtitlan and the natural islands it covered, to to view it at full size open the image as it's own tab, an then edit the url to end in "orig", ex: ...format=jpg&name=orig
Lastly, what "Mexico" and "Mexica" (the specific ethnic group of Nahuas/"Aztecs" in Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco; Tlatelolco being another city founded on the island of Mexico, but the Tenochca Mexicas conquered the Tlatleolca, and both cities fused into each other) mean and what their name origins are is a subject of debate and isn't clear (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_o…
), contrary to some other replies asserting a uncontested etymologies
See here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18688…
for info on how Mexica vs Nahua vs Aztec etc intersect as terms, as there are nuances I skipped over;, and here for more posts I've done on Mesoamerican history and archeology in general: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18688…)
This isn't quite true. The people we call "Aztec" wouldn't have commonly used the term as an endonym, but it ("Azteca" or "Aztecah") WAS still one used in certain contexts and shows up in 16thC indigenous Nahuatl sources
In those sources, "Azteca" is a FORMER endonym the Mexica (the main Nahua group we tend to associate with the term "Aztec" today, the group which founded Tenochtitlan, the capital of the "Aztec Empire") used for themselves and presumably by/for other ethnic groups which claimed to originate from their legendary homeland of Aztlan (since that's what it means: People from/of Aztlan).
But these groups abandoned that Azteca label in favor of more specific ones as they settled down: Mexica, Tepaneca, Chalca, Xochimilca, Tlaxcalteca, etc. @Mexicolore has this post mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home… which breaks down the "Azteca" label a bit more.
The problem with "Aztec" as a term isn't that it's an exonym (it's not, even if it wasn't their preferred endonym either) it's that in modern contexts, the term isn't used consistently to mean a specific set of ethnic or political groups:
Different historians and archeologists, actual experts, will all use it to mean slightly different cross-sections of groups. People going "actually the correct term is Mexica" is kinda reductive because many of said researchers do use "Aztec" to refer to the Nahuas in general (not just the Mexica), or even a few non Nahuatl groups (due to being within the "Aztec Empire" or due to also claiming to come from Aztlan or other reasons), among a dozen other potential caveats and nuances.
EX: A town like Cuexcomate can be called "Aztec, in that it's inhabitants belonged to the Tlahuica subgroup(s) of Nahuas (confusingly the term "Tlahuica" is also used for a unrelated, non-Nahuatl speaking Mesoamerican group) and that it was inside the Aztec Empire, but calling Cuexcomate "Mexica" would be misleading since it;s denizens weren't Mexica Nahuas, and while it was under Mexica political dominion, people generally just use "Mexica" to refer to ethnic groups, not political association.
Here are more in depth writeups tackling Aztec vs Nahua vs Mexica vs Tenochca etc as terms:
- reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/co…
- reddit.com/r/nahuatl/comment…… (but see also ThesaurusRex84's criticisms)
- reddit.com/r/mesoamerica/com…
- reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/c…
- tumblr.com/ra-tutubixi/69318…… (by @cornesnenk )
- davidbowles.medium.com/etymo…… (by @DavidOBowles )
MajoraZ retweeted
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kotaku.com/rep-ritchie-torre…
MajoraZ retweeted
To add:
- We don't know the culture of the main inhabitants, but some districts had Maya, Zapotec, Gulf Coast or Michoacano denizens
- We have a decent idea of its growth and decline over time, and it's interactions with other cities
So, it fits neatly within our understanding and broader knowledge of Mesoamerican history, politics, and cultural groups: It's not like it's a total mystery or entirely anomalous, even if there are some things about it we don't know yet or are unusual
For context, here's a short summary of Teotihuacan's history:
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A small city or a town/village by maybe 300, or definitely 100BC, Teotihuacan grew explosively ~100-200AD, it grew explosively, likely from volcanoes displacing people from other nearby sites like Cuicuilco, who migrated into Teotihuacan (tho I did come across some papers lately which contradict this).
Over the next 200 years it became a huge metropolis (~100,000 people across a 18sqkm grid, the full site arguably covering 37sqkm), with it's theater style braziers, talud-tablero architectural style, and other traits spreading across Mesoamerica.
It developed ties with major Maya and Zapotec cities like Tikal and Monte Alban, tho for the former there was seemingly breakdown of diplomacy, with Teotihuacano armies conquering it and other Maya cities around 375-425AD (tho if these armies were really from Teotihuacan is debated).
It reached it's peak between 400-450AD, and then had a series of small disruptions or declines (one may have also happened ~300AD?), before collapsing around 550-650AD (perhaps from civil uprising, based on damage to the Xalla compound)
Teotihuacan possibly retained smaller but still sizable population for a few more centuries, but it was no longer a major political center. It was never totally depopulated, but different groups moved in and out, living in towns/villages in or around the ruins.
When the Aztec began to dominate the valley, they worked Teotihuacan's ruins into their creation myths, used it as pilgrimage site, possibly refurnished some of its shrines, and did archeological excavations there, bringing artifacts back to Tenochtitlan and used Teotihuacan layout, art, and architecture as inspiration for their own construction and artwork.
For even more info and links, I discuss Teotihuacan further here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18340…
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So, as we can see, Teotihuacan is not some out of place anomaly that appears out of nowhere and vanishes without a trace, without clear ties to other Mesoamerican civilizations: It has somewhat clear origins, we know part of why it got so big, we see it interact with other civilizations that do have known linguistic/cultural identities, it had influence over broader Mesoamerican art and culture, we probably know part of why it declined, and we see later Mesoamerican civilizations interact with it's legacy.
That's not to say there's nothing unique or unusual about it, it's really big, for one, and parts of it's urban layout and how it's space was used is odd, with it being organized around a central road rather then plazas like most Mesoamerican cities, it having a planned grid, mostly lacking ball courts, most of its population living in palaces as apartments, and the lack of clear signs of kings (tho I have some skepticism on that last one).
But many other things about it's urbanism and architecture fit into regional trends, and "we don't know who built it" isn't really one of those notable odd traits: In fact as as Dr. Miano here implies, we kind of do? The Teotihuacanos did.
We don't know what language the Teotihuacano spoke (theories range from Otomi, Totonac, Nahuatl/Proto-Nahuatl etc), and it's not obviously part of a broader cultural group, but that's not too different from, say, the Minoans: AFAIK we also don't know what language they spoke, their sites are localized to Crete and otherwise we just see their artistic and economic influence elsewhere.
The difference is, I think, that people are taught how different European civilizations, kingdoms, and empires rose and fell over time, and are introduced to the Minoans and other groups as known quantities, wheras for Mesoamerica people are only taught that the Aztec, Maya and maybe the Olmec exist, and even then not much about them.
If you barely even know how those 3 civilizations developed over time, where and when they existed etc, and aren't aware of the dozens of other civilizations in the region's ~3000 history, then yeah, hearing about a massive city you were never taught about where we don't know the identity of the group that built it is going to seem like a big mystery.
As it happens, The (arguably) largest city in both Mesoamerica and all of the Americas during the Roman period (Teotihuacan), had Maya, Zapotec, Michoacano and Gulf Coast ethnic neighborhoods inside of it!
For some context, Teotihuacan was a city in the Valley of Mexico (later the core of the Aztec Empire, today Mexico City) and at it's height at 400-500AD, had ~100,000 denizens , a ~20 square kilometer urban grid, with the city as a whole covering 37sqkm (so notably wider then Rome, but not as populated... not sure if the 100k is for the 20 or 37sqkm area)
Some sectors of that grid, such as the Merchant's Barrio, the Oaxaca barrio, etc have art, burial practices, and some architectural features associated with those cultures (you can read about the Gulf coast one/the Merchants Barrio here: storymaps.arcgis.com/stories…
There's actually a theory that Teotihuacan had a longstanding Maya embassy, due to (IIRC) some finds at the Plaza of the Columns compound, as well as some structures potentially identified as Teotihuacano embassies at major Maya cities like Tikal, though there seems to have been a diplomatic breakdown with the compound being desecrated, and some Maya sites have inscriptions of conquests some researchers identify as Teotihuacano invading and installing rulers on Tikal and other Maya sites, and we subsequently see Maya elites adopting a lot of Teotihuacano iconography.
Some articles about this, keep in mind though not all researchers ascribe to this, but a fair amount do:
science.org/content/article/…
science.org/content/article/…
science.org/content/article/…
Anyways, we do also know Teotihuacan had diplomatic contact with the most powerful Zapotec city, Monte Alban, and Teotihuacano art and architectural influence is seen there in Oaxaca, as I mentioned in the Southern and Central Maya lowlands even down in Guatemala, and other parts of Mesoamerica.
Some people even call it the Rome of Mesoamerica as a result, but as the first Science.org article says, it probably only "directly" ruled a kingdom within Central Mexico and just had wider influence, and even then it's "direct" subjects may not have been under direct administration (tho I'm not familiar with the specifics for Teotihuacan here so maybe they were):, Mesoamerican kingdoms/empires tended to be hegemonies, even the Aztec Empire was actually pretty hands off: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18085…
In general Teotihuacan has some weird urban design traits: it lacked ball courts, as mentioned had the ethnic barrios, a huge urban grid, which was aligned to a central road, etc, all of which were unusual in Mesoamerica (typically things were organized around plazas to have ritual alignment/for communal activities in the urban core, then larger radial suburban sprawls). But my favorite unique trait is that basically the entire population was living in fancy palace compounds with dozens of rooms, painted frescoes, some plumbing etc, comparable to Roman villas or Chinese palaces.
In most Mesoamerican cities these served as elite or royal residences but in Teotihuacan they acted as apartments even for many commoner families. Due to that, the multi-ethnic setup, a lack of signs of singular autocratic rulership, it might have been a republic or a democracy (we see this during the Aztec period at Tlaxcala, for example: youtube.com/watch?v=FVgNulhQ…)
In any case, while there were some earlier disruptions of shifts inside the city, around 550-650 AD, there was a major event, probably a civil uprising, and the city had a major decline. By some models, it still had tens of thousands of people for a few centuries after, and even during the Aztec period some towns were in and around the ruins, but it ceased to be the giant political player it was after the uprising.
The Aztec actually did excavations at the site's ruins, brought back artifacts to Tenochtitlan (the Aztec even revived some Teotihuacano art and architectural styles and some urban design elements: see mesoweb.com/pari/publication… , mesoweb.com/es/articulos/sub… , and researchgate.net/publication…, plus xitter.cf/ohs688/status/13169928…), and kings preformed pilgrimages there, and worked the site into their creation myths
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For people curious for more, I helped out with a nearly 40m video on Teotihuacan here: youtube.com/watch?v=aV6ZZZsC…
Also, see "ALT" labels for more info about each image and the specifics of what's being shown, how accurate each reconstruction is, etc. Pic 1 by @Trasancos , 2 has credits within image, 3 is by @DavidRo14403650 , and 4 is by @RafaelmenaI (and is the most up to date reconstruction of any part of Teotihuacan)
ALT 3d reconstruction of Teotihuacan's West Plaza compound, with the Avenue of the Dead and the Pyramid of the Sun in the background, by Anxo Miján Maroño/TRASANCOS 3D Note this borrows fresco designs and detailing from other structures like the Atetelco compound, Feathered Serpent temple etc, due to the West Plaza compound being less intact. The Pyramid of the Sun also lacks the sculptural facade it had in it's heyday, which had sculptures of Jaguars and human hearts (see: http://imgur.com/a/4x8cn6A) with additional fire motifs, not unlike the Feathered Serpent, Crocodile/War Serpent/Rain God sculptures and water motifs on the F.S. Temple's facade which is still intact today. While not relevant to this view, the TRASANCOS 3D city model also excludes the canalized rivers through the city's layout, has many of the random, unnamed compounds arranged somewhat randomly (though still at-a-glance-authentic) rather then 1:1 to the mapped layout, and some landmarks aren't contemporaneous
ALT Collage of photos and reconstructions of some key Teotihuacano residences, plus a downscaled version of the Teotihuacan Site Map made by Hillary Olcott (Via Millon Teotihuacan Mapping Project) for the "City of Water, City of Fire" exhibit. Further image credits listed in image, to see the image at full size to make the text more readable, open the image in a web browser and edit the url to end in "orig", EX: ....format=jpg&name=orig
ALT Reconstruction of the Feathered Serpent temple at Teotihuacan, and other structures attached to the Ciudadela complex; CC BY-NC-SA, David Romero (@DavidRo14403650). The Feathered Serpent Temple is well preserved, the paint and detailed sculptures/reliefs seen here are 1:1 to the actual structure in it's heyday. However, the Ciudadela complex's courtyard/plaza in front of the Feathered Serpent Temple may not have had grass on it, as it could be flooded for rituals to turn it into a giant pool/basin. Additionally, the Feathered Serpent Temple was obscured by another, less detailed temple, the Adosada (a term used for a protruding section of a temple, on the Pyramid of the Sun and Moon the Adosada is a proper part of those pyramids) which was built a few centuries after the Feathered Serpent Temple (when it was also intentionally desecrated) to block it from view. As such, this render would be dated to 200-350 AD, thoughi'm not sure how that aligns with other portions of the Ciudadela
ALT Aerial view of Tlajinga district of Teotihuacan, art by @RafaelmenaI . Tlajinga is a relatively lower status part of the city and was primarily inhabited by Obsidian workers. Note Rafael's art is based on some of the most up to date archeological research, and conflicting details between it and other reconstructions and even the maps derived from the Millon Teotihuacan mapping project are from the latter being wrong or outdated: This art is more accurate, where conflicts exist. Refer also to Rafael's art of a family of obsidian workers in Tlajinga here: https://x.com/RafaelmenaI/status/1631720184988803082
MajoraZ retweeted
This is actually specifically a ceramic figure of a boxer. As in, the combat sport.
For those curious for more info, see the link below:
xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18707…
For people curious, this is depicting a ritual or gladiatorial boxer, they sometimes had these sorts of helmets.
For more info:
- mayadecipherment.com/page/15…
- American Gladiators: Ritual Boxing in Ancient Mesoamerica (Taube)
- The ballgame, boxing and blood sport in ancient Mesoamérica (Taube)
- Boxing Day: a Maya polychrome potfrom southern Belize
- archive.archaeology.org/0811…
See also "ALT" labels for more info about each image
And specific links for the artistic reconstructions in the collage in the 4th image:
- Maya Boxer artworks by @Zotzcomic , deviantart.com/kamazotz/art/… / artstation.com/artwork/L2drQ… / xitter.cf/Zotzcomic/status/11109… and deviantart.com/kamazotz/art/… / artstation.com/artwork/8lNLz… / xitter.cf/Zotzcomic/status/11146…
- Maya Boxer artwork by @itzamahel , deviantart.com/itzamahel/art… and xitter.cf/itzamahel/status/17195… and instagram.com/itzamahel/p/Cz…; see also animated: objkt.com/tokens/hicetnunc/8…
- Maya Boxer artwork by @LuisArmandoAla5 ; deviantart.com/luisarmandoal… and artstation.com/artwork/8bkYO…
- Maya Boxer Fighting game character concept by @onebadnoodle_ ; xitter.cf/onebadnoodle_/status/1… and onebadnoodle.tumblr.com/post…
That 4th image/the collage also mentions what ceramic each artist's reconstruction is based on: Most use the 3 pieces I posted photos of, but some also use Am 1997 Q856 (which is shown in the "Boxing Day..." publication I mentioned) and the El Peru-Waka Burial 39 ceramic which ArchaeoHistories posted (tho there is a nearly identical figure also)
ALT Maya seated clay Boxer figure with removable helmet (K2299B in Kerr Database;); Petén, Guatemala; 600-900AD; H 12.4 cm w. helmet, Brownware ceramic with traces of red, blue, yellow, and black (chapopote/mexican asphalt) pigments, photo via Drouot
ALT Rollout photo of Maya Vase K500, featuring boxers in helmets with conch shell gauntlets; Height 17.4cm, Diameter 10.6cm, Circum. 36.5cm; Kerr Collection (http://research.mayavase.com/kerrmaya_list.php?_allSearch=&hold_search=&x=0&y=0&vase_number=500&date_added=&ms_number=&site=); Public Domain
ALT Rollout photo of Maya Vase K700, featuring teams of boxers in G3 masks and G3 jaguar trophy heads on belts, with conch shell gauntlets; Height, 18cm Diameter 11.2cm, Circum. 0cm; Kerr Collection (http://research.mayavase.com/kerrmaya_list.php?_allSearch=&hold_search=&x=0&y=0&vase_number=700&date_added=&ms_number=&site=); Public Domain
ALT Collage of Artistic reconstructions of Maya boxers, see inside image for credits. (To see the image at full size to make the text more readable, open the image in a web browser and edit the url to end in "orig", EX: ....format=jpg&name=orig)
MajoraZ retweeted
I agree, but keep in mind that your second image doesn't resemble what actual Mesoamerican fashion worn by the Aztec, Maya etc really looked like.
Compare it to these images (credits listed within the image for pics 1-2, 3-4 are by @Zotzcomic )
In addition to Zotzcomic, see also art by @RafaelmenaI / @SaxRafael1 / @rafaelmena , @OHS688 , @AztecEmpire1520 , @Axolitoo , @ChicoDLHistoria , @TlacuiloCouixca / @LuisArmandoAla5 , @MiCorazonMexica , @Itzcacalotl , @nosukuk2
and the artists in this list xitter.cf/i/lists/12403345682485…
There's a lot of other Mesoamerican artists not in the list since I haven't updated it in a while, but that should be a good selection to start with
Also, for artists not on twitter/social media, look up Scott and Stuart Gentling, H. Tom Hall, Angus Mcbride, Keith Henderson, Peter Dennis, Tomas Filsinger, Adam Hook, Louis Glanzman, Christopher Klein, Ned Seidler, Christian Jégou, Iker Larrauri Prado, and Ignacio Redondo
I also do posts on Mesoamerican history and archeology, see some of my posts in this linked tweet:
xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/20242…
Here's an updated directory of (some of) my in depth posts and breakdowns on Mesoamerican history and archeology!
- I talk about notably complex examples of Mesoamerican engineering here in this post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/16622… and more on aqueducts and waterworks here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/17418… (see also the post above it in the chain from me), and on other cool achievements here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19312…
- I have a writeup on Aztec sanitation and hygiene, as well as medical and botanical sciences, which were actually quite developed even by European standards at the time, over here: docs.google.com/document/d/1…
- A big post on Teotihuacan here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18340… which goes into more detail about the city and it's impressive urban planning, quality of housing, and it's potential politics both domestically and its interaction with the Maya etc
- A post I did here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/20241… with multiple paragraphs of quotes from Spanish, Italian, and German writers praising Aztec and other Mesoamerican cities, art, governance, order, and even ethics, and comparing them to the Greeks and Romans as "Civilized pagans" (see also xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/17501… for comparisons drawn by Spanish friars between Catholicism and Mesoamerican religion)
- This post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18688… and xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/17280… on Aztec vs Nahua vs Mexica vs Tenochca as terms and what "Aztec" actually means (or can mean)
- I talk about Aztec warfare, particularly in regards to how it was pragmatic and organized, not just ritualistic, here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19778… , and this docs.google.com/document/d/1… larger google doc
- This post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18351… and xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19196… on common Conquest myths/misconceptions and how events actually played out
- Here I talk about xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/17275… how Cortes was used by local kings & officials like Xicomecoatl, Ixtlixochtlli II, Xicotencatl, and even Moctezuma II as much as Cortes used them, see also xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19201… for even more info
-This: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19781… talks more about the Aztec political structure and why Cortes getting allies against the Aztec was mostly the result of opportunism enabled by their hands off political system, not Aztec rule being resented
-For even more info/details on that (The Aztec having hands-off rule and Cortes getting allies from that, not from their rule being hated) see xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19181… and xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19144… and xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/17561… and xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/17710… , and this docs.google.com/document/d/1… longer google doc
- This: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/17849… Touches on the motives behind Moctezuma II's actions in his interactions with Cortes a bit (I should do a more in depth version)
- This: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19810… post about the legendary incident where the Aztec flayed the skin of a princess they asked for as a political marriage and what was up with that
- This post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19032… and this post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19524… on the amount of people that were likely sacrificed in the Aztec capital, and this post xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19336… on Aztec cannibalism
- This post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19292… on the complex societies of Precolumbian North America (as in, in what's now the United States, rather then in Mesoamerica), as well as in other parts of Central and South America, even if you exclude the Andes (where the Inca were)
- This post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19152… on some of the luxury art and artifacts that were taken to Europe from the Aztec capital
- This post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18216… of me obsessively breaking down two meme shitpost images and the Mesoamerican elements present in both
- This post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18180… on the average person's quality of life in contact period Mesoamerica
- This post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/17384… breaking down some misunderstandings regarding beliefs around sacrifices being needed for the sun to rise
- This post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/17790… which lists out a bunch of Mesoamerican inspired games, comics, movies, shows, Youtubers, etc
- This post: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18830… has a WIP Mesoamerica bookchart
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And I have much more, for example there's all the posts of mine which are marked as Highlights here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/highlights and others still not linked there, but that's a starting set
I wish there was a way to link people bookmark folders so I could have a directory people could browse, including stuff I don't think is quite Highlight material 😭
Lastly I've also helped with a fair bit of Mesoamerican content on Youtube, such as DJPeachCobbler's Aztec video trilogy, @InvictaHistory 's Aztec Rank video, @CartoonUV 's Onyx Equinox video, many of @AmericasAncient 's videos (especially the Teotihuacan and Chocolate videos), @Lockstin 's Tlalocmon video, etc
MajoraZ retweeted
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MajoraZ retweeted
I do posts on Mesoamerican history/archeology, and figured I'd chime in on interpreting ornaments in codices and on Tonantzin and Cihuacoatl:
Yes, figuring out how the regalia and ornaments in codices actually looked in 3-dimensions can be difficult, you often have to compare many codices, plus ceramic figures, stone sculptures etc to get a handle on it
What is the most helpful are
1. Books which focus on Mesoamerican fashion (see the attached image, "Insignia of Rank" in particular is extremely useful, and INAH also has published a few other books not listed here on things like ritual staffs/scepters, shell ornaments, etc)
and
2. Academic papers which focus entirely on the iconography of a specific deity or codex, but those can be difficult to track down, especially if you're not already familiar with the literature. I've seen and have read or downloaded some before on Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca, Tlaloc, Chalchiuhtlicue, Huitzliopotchli, and the Tzitzimime a+ various related deities
On the note of the Tzitzimime, I believe researching them may be of use to you (this: researchgate.net/publication… is the one I previously looked at, though I really had just skimmed it😅):
The Codex image you posted is actually a depiction of the goddess Cihuacoatl from the Codex Magliabechiano, and she has some of the feminine skeletal imagery associated with the Tzitzimime (and by extension, Itzpapalotl, who is especially associated with/as one of them), as do the Cihuateteo, Tlatecuhtli, and Coatlicue, and all of these are goddesses associated with motherhood, which may tie into the concept of "Tonantzin"...
...Though I admit most of what I can pull up on the term is within the context of discussing the Lady of Guadalupe and modern Chicana feminist artwork, rather then papers on actual Mesoamerican ethnography, art, and archeology, so I am a bit skeptical how much of the things sources ascribe to "Tonantzin" truly reflects prehispanic beliefs and practices.
@AbbasiJuan
may have input here?
At very least, Arqueologia Mexicana, which is generally a good source, notes that Sahagun refers to Cihuacoatl as Tonantzin (though i'm not sure if it was exclusively an epithet of Cihuacoatl, or if it was a wider term that also applied to other related mother goddesses, which is my impression), and that there seems to have been a cult devoted to Tonantzin at Tepeyac: arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… (apparently the sources discussing her cult there also call her Ilamatecuhtli, which IIRC is also an epithet used for some other mother deities, though I forget the specifics and I'm running out of time to continue to flesh this reply out 😅) and seems to support the idea that the concept played into the Lady/Virgin of Guadalupe cult: arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
Also, re: Cihuacoatl iconography, these might be helpful:
facebook.com/arqueomex/posts…
mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/azte…
arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic…
revistas.inah.gob.mx/index.p…
scielo.org.mx/scielo.php?scr…
Most (though not all) of the Arqueologia Mexicana articles are excerpts from a longer article on the deity's iconography within their issue #183, it seems.
Anyways, another thing helpful for interpreting the ornamentation see in codices is looking at how other artists do it: @ohs688 , @zotzcomic , @RafaelmenaI , @TlacuiloCouixca / @LuisArmandoAla5 and @Axolitoo all do some excellent, well researched historical reconstructions. Also, while they take more creative liberties to varying degrees, @Itzcacalotl , @nosukuk2 , and @MiCorazonMexica all do an excellent job here too.
There are other artists I can suggest in addition to these, but they are who come to mind to me at the moment. I do have a big Mesoamerican artist list, but I really need to update it 😅
MajoraZ retweeted
Tlatoani is on sale for the Steam Daily Deal, with 50% off, if you haven't picked it up already.
store.steampowered.com/app/3…
MajoraZ retweeted
This needs to be in front of every legislator in the world. Basic common sense, tech informed, genuine care for the wellbeing of children.
Journalists who might be thinking of asking me in to talk about teen social media bans: please ask Paul as well. He's an expert.
Technical facts disproving political and tech claims on online child safety:
Protecting children online requires knowing who is a child. Knowing who is a child requires knowing ages. Knowing ages requires knowing everyone's age across all devices, apps, and internet services. That requires age checking services.
Age checking services cannot comply with government mandates to be "robust". "Robust" age checking originated in Australia and is now in US and EU legislation. It means "best endeavours" with specific legal intent.
"Robust" age checking requires proving age beyond doubt. Age estimation services can never be "robust". You cannot have a "robust" service without verifying everyone's identity through government issued ID or extensive personal, financial, or behavioural data. Without enough data, device, app, or service access is denied until official ID is provided.
Verifying every identity destroys privacy. Storing verification data on servers creates instant risk. Identity verification enables governments to monitor citizens and censor speech. As Larry Ellison said, people change behaviour when monitored through digital surveillance.
Parents can already protect children from online harms using existing technology. In 2012, I demonstrated poor parental controls on BBC Newsnight, leading me to build early safety tools for Samsung and Apple. I also built the first Android time curfew capability 14 years ago.
Today, iOS and Android offer built in controls to block unsuitable apps, websites, and content by age rating, alongside granular curfews. Real world risks like bullying exist online, but parents can manage access just as they manage real world exposure.
Exhibit A: If parents can already block access for free on their own phones, why do governments push legislation that forces identity collection, exposing data to cybercriminals and tech companies?
Exhibit B: Why are governments, tech companies, and NGOs not educating parents on existing settings that are free of charge and "robust", even while citing tragic cases to push legislation?
In 2004, I co-founded the W3C standard for Content Labelling and URI Classification, co-inventing account and folder classification to label content based on risk and compliance. I advocated for voluntary account verification to stop impersonation long before people knew it was even possible.
Mandatory identity verification to use a phone or internet service is dystopian control. I would never advocate or support that.
I have advised the US DOJ, NCMEC, CEOP, and IWF on child exploitation detection. EU Chat Control and UK image scanning mandates will not tackle exploitation. They break end to end encryption and VPNs, introducing dangerous spyware, and puts more children at risk.
MajoraZ retweeted
This is not Maya, nor from the Classic period.
This is Olmec, namely Altar 5 from La Venta, accordingly this is a Preclassic/Formative period structure.
You don't even need to be a Mesoamerican nerd to know this, the style is clearly Olmec and Google's reverse image search just tells you it's Altar 5 (not that I would trust it's AI summary answer, but in this case it is correct)
MajoraZ retweeted
That top photo is NOT Teotihuacan's Sun Pyramid, it's a slag/garbage heap near the French-Belgian border, see here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B…
See also my post below for info about how the Pyramid looked in it's heyday, for actual photos of how it looked before it was excavated
xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18709…
.JPG?useskin=vector)
To be clear, that's specifically the Sun Pyramid at Teotihuacan, the site has more then one
Also, while there are real photos showing the Sun Pyramid before it's restoration (see: xitter.cf/asuteolab/status/11892… ) your top photo is a slag heap by the French-Belgian border
It's also worth noting that in it's heyday the Pyramid was also painted (all big buildings were), had sculptures of Jaguars, human hearts, and fire motifs on the Tablero panels on the Adosada (the sort of central "mini pyramid" sticking out on the front) that's not visible in the modern restoration due to being badly damaged/worn. The modern restoration also incorrectly added an extra slope layer to the pyramid.
Pic 1 here shows a reconstruction by @Trasancos with the paint (but without the Adosada sculptures/reliefs) and I THINK shows it with the correct amount of slopes?
Pic 2 shows the sculptures and reliefs on the Adosada
Pic 3, a reconstruction by @DavidRo14403650 is NOT of the Sun Pyramid, but is of the Feathered Serpent Pyramid (the third largest at Teotihuacan after the Sun Pyramid and the Moon Pyramid), which has a much more intact series of sculptural facades and reliefs and we can reconstruct more precisely, just to give more of an idea of how the Sun Pyramid's facade might have looked like (tho the Feathered Serpent Pyramid has Feathered Serpent Heads, Crocodile or War Serpent or zoomorphized year sign heads, and water reliefs rather then the jaguars/heart/fire motifs the Sun Pyramid had).
I also post more about Teotihuacan here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18340…
Also here's proof that top photo is a slag heap in europe: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B…
ALT The Pyramid of the Sun at Teotihuacan by TRASANCOS 3D/Anxo Miján Maroño. Note that this lacks the sculpture accents and reliefs on the lower adosada/Talud-tablero section, see my next image for that. I believe this render also CORRECTLY shows the number of slanted platforms/layers, wheras the real life restored ruins has an incorrect added one from when it was restored in the 20th century restoration. The specific paint colors, patterns etc may also not be exact here, though the red, greens, etc are typical for Teotihuacan
ALT Diagrams showing the accenting on the Adosada/Tablero panels of the Sun Pyramid, with sculptures of Jaguars and human hearts plus circular jade/preciousness symbols. I also recall there being signs of fire related reliefs? Artist credits listed within image. Compare this to the Adosada accenting on the Temple of the Feathered Serpent also at Teotihuacan, in the next image
ALT Temple of the Feathered Serpent at Teotihuacan, render by @DavidRo14403650 / http://www.hookedonthepast.com / https://www.flickr.com/people/143771393@N04/), CC BY-NC-SA 2.0 This is NOT the Sun Pyramid, but we Temple of the Feathered Serpent is in the same city and has a more intact set of Tablero panels/adosadas plus paint traces, which is recreated in 3d here: The panels have sculptures of Feathered Serpent heads and what's variously described as Tlaloc, Crocodile, or War Serpent heads, alongside various marine motifs of shells and the like inscribed as reliefs. This can help you visualize what the Sun Pyramid's facade would have looked like, albiet as the last image shows, the Sun Pyramid had Jaguar and human heart sculptures and IIRC fire reliefs. That said, the plaza in front of the Feathered Serpent Pyramid may not have had grass (it could be ritually flooded), and a Adosada structure was eventually built in front of the pyramid to block it's viewing around the city's height.
MajoraZ retweeted
Reminder that I have one of these things, through which you can support to see lots more of those illustrations that yall who follow me, like so much.
Made a fair bit of updates, plan on doing a bunch more, and have a few paintings on the way
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European Citizens' Initiative: Stop requiring identity documents to access the Internet.
Please sign the online form. Please retweet.
1M names required.
No id is needed to sign.
eci.ec.europa.eu/066/public/…
MajoraZ retweeted
I can't comment on what this says re: The Inquisition or the French Revolution but...
....as someone who follows Mesoamerican history and archeology, what this says about the Mexica/the Aztec is misleading. Their clothing is also incorrect
xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/20714…
I do posts on Aztec history:
Saying the "Mexica empire did 20k sacrifices a year" is misleading. The # itself is plausible, but the claim's origin is unreliable + it's nonsensical to total up sacrifices across the whole "empire". The Mexica also didn't look like that
See below for clarification, in both a shorter and longer format:
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The short version is this:
1. The ruling Mexica of the Aztec Empire did not have a quota or do empire wide administration for sacrifices (or for other matters, the Mexica were conquerors, but loose rulers, see pic 3). Each conquered state, and likely to an extent each city, town, and village, had their own local sacrificial practices and customs they would have followed and done without the Mexica having a say or involvement in it. So it doesn't make sense to total up sacrifices across the whole "empire" as a singular unified number or figure.
2. The Mexica of Tenochtitlan around the 1480s probably sacrificed a few hundred to a few thousand people a year, MAYBE around 10,000 if you highball it, based on the Huey Tzompantli (pic 4) excavations. 20,000 sacrifices a year for the whole empire (my point about it not making sense to total sacrifices up that way aside) is plausible, in fact it may have been an even bigger number, however...
3. ...People seem to be getting that 20,000 sacrifices a year for the empire (or for Tenochtitlan specifically sometimes) via secondary sources misinterpreting figures given by Juan de Zumarraga, who in turn is unreliable both as he had a bias as the head inquisitor in Colonial Mexico and seems to pull the numbers from his butt. The actual numbers he gives, rather then 20,000 sacrifices across the whole Aztec empire a year, are rather him claiming 20,000 sacrifices just in Tenochtitlan a year (which is unlikely based on the Huey Tzompantli excavations), and 20,000 child sacrifices across an undetermined wider area (which is also unlikely based on the lack of remains found at sites)
4. The clothing and architecture seen in the infographic are inaccurate. You can see some accurate "Aztec" (both in a strict and loose sense) clothing in pic 2 by contrast, and further down I also link more accurate renditions of Aztec pyramids. The pyramids in the infograph i'm replying to look Maya and the clothing is just mostly made up.
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The long version is this:
Firstly, some context is needed: The bottom half or so of Mexico, all of Guatemala and Belize, and bits of Honduras, El Salvador, and Nicaragua make up "Mesoamerica", which is the cradle of civilization and cultural region the Aztec and related cultures belong to. The region had cities, writing systems etc going back many thousands of years (what is usually considered the region's first city, San Lorenzo, existed as early as 1400BC, or around 3000 years before Spanish contact), and had dozens of major civilizations over that span of time. See pic 1 here for a summarized timeline.
Sacrifice was a nearly to perhaps literally universal practice in the region: Nearly everybody did it in some form, to some extent.
The Aztec are simply one of the latest civilizations to develop in Mesoamerica, and were one of if not the most militarily and politically dominant. "Aztec" is also a terribly imprecise term: This xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/17280… and this xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/18688… post explain that in more depth, but essentially "Aztec" in modern sources generally refers either to
1. Nahuatl speaking ethnic groups and city-states as a whole (pic 2 shows fashion and dress worn by different Nahua groups, the Mexica and Tlaxcalteca, to demonstrate that the outfits seen in the image I'm responding to aren't accurate, see also this image: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/19445… regarding how the style of pyramids is off, they resemble Maya ones more then Aztec ones)
2. the specific Mexica Nahua subgroup and their city of Tenochtitlan-Tlatelolco (technically two cities which, but they fused together)
3. The "Aztec Empire", which Tenochtitlan was the capital of, alongside two potential lesser capitals of Texcoco and Tlacopan (the empire's exact political structure and the nature of those capitals is debated somewhat)
Confusingly, not all states inside the "Aztec Empire" were Nahua, and not all Nahua states in Mesoamerica were inside the "Aztec Empire": Some of the empire's conquered states were Maya, Totonac, Huastec, Otomi, Zapotec, Mixtec etc, while say Tlaxcala was Nahua but was never conquered into it.
This is important to mention because obviously cultural beliefs and practices varied between say Nahua vs Maya vs Otomi cities, or even between different Nahua ones, the same way that say different cities in Ancient Greece may have all been Greek, but each city or group of cities had their own ethnic labels and patron gods and local holidays and myths
The ruling Mexica of the Aztec Empire also did not directly govern the states they conquered much: Generally speaking, existing kings, laws, customs, officials and political institutions etc were kept in place for conquered subjects to self manage, provided they paid taxes of economic goods (not typically captives for sacrifice or slavery: The Mexica collected these DURING conquests, not usually from already conquered states) and labor or military service, did not block roads, and put up a shrine to the patron Mexica god Huitzilopotchli
This is in contrast to popular misconceptions where the Mexica are characterized as oppressive tyrants: In reality, while they were expansionistic conquerors, they were loose rulers (see pic 3, from Hassig's "Aztec Warfare: Imperial Expansion and Political Control", as well as my post here xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/20700… where I explain why Cortes got allies against them if they weren't oppressive and if everybody else was also doing sacrifices)
What this means is that there was no empire-wide quota or administrative oversight for sacrifices: Each conquered state would have largely done sacrifices in accordance with their own local customs and beliefs (though there is some evidence to suggest that the smaller towns and villages that a given city-state had as dependencies may have had sacrifices overseen by that local state capital), aside from some special festivals or events where the Mexica may have called upon neighboring cities and states to provide logistical aid and some victims for the ceremony, and likewise, there is some evidence that in special circumstances other towns or cities may have had Mexica officials or immigrants arrive to participate in ceremonies
As far as the actual number, 20,000 sacrifices across the whole empire, my aforementioned point about it not making sense to total stuff up that way aside, is a plausible figure, IMO. I need to do a larger post at some point breaking down different sacrifice rate estimates, but for reference, I have a fairly recent breakdown of the Huey Tzompantli Great Skull rack excavations here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/20551… , and my friend has a slightly more updated version here: reddit.com/r/aztec/comments/… , though both of us need to incorporate information from this recent paper we found since making those: academia.edu/167159787/Insig…
To summarize those posts though, the Huey Tzompantli likely held around ~16,000 skulls in the rack portion (perhaps a bit more, perhaps less, depending on variables we clarify on in those posts), with the twin adjacent skull towers likely holding a few thousand more. Depending on your view of how long it took to fill the rack and what proportion of the city's annual sacrifices were deposited there or elsewhere, that probably suggests an annual sacrifice rate around that time of a few hundred to a few thousand people, maybe even around 10,000 if you highball it, but probably not much more then that: In the chronicles, the amount of sacrifices used to construct the rack is presented as an exceptional amount, so it doesn't make sense that an entire Huey Tzompantli's worth of victims were being sacrificed every year. Researchers like Dr. Camilla Townsend and Dr. Caroline Dodds Pennock have also informally said that they think a few thousand sacrifices a year is likely.
Technically you could argue the Huey Tzompantli that we're excavating is probably from a prior revision to the final one that was in use at the time of Spanish contact, which could have been larger which leaves the door open to a higher amount of annual sacrifices in the last few decades of Tenochtitlan's existence, but conversely it's also probably the case that EARLIER periods in the city's history had less annual sacrifices, and there's much more time prior to 1487 (when the excavated Tzompantli seems to have been made) then after in the city's lifespan, so the actual average annual sacrifice over the ~200 years of the city's existence would trend lower, likely significantly lower, rather then higher.
It's much harder to estimate the amount of sacrifices other cities and towns were doing, but the Aztec Empire contained around 500 subject and vassal states, and each state had a few to a few dozen population centers, so even each state sacrificing a few dozen people a year plus Tenochtitlan could easily hit 20,000 people. The actual total might be more like 50,000, 100,000 etc, even.
However, that doesn't mean that people saying the whole empire sacrificed 20,000 people a year are pulling that number from a informed place: The 20,000 figure seems to come from people misquoting and misinterpreting some totals given by Juan de Zumarraga, the grand inquisitor in early colonial Mexico, who says two possible origin points for the number, both repeated in Torquemada's Monarquia Indiana: In one instance (archive.org/details/monarqui…), he claims Tenochtitlan (and probably Tlatelolco?) sacrificed 20,000 people a year, while in another instance (archive.org/details/monarqui…) that 20,000 children were sacrificed across "these lands", which presumably refers to some larger portion of Central Mexico, which may or may not equate to "The Aztec Empire"
Both of these figures are probably exaggerations: Zumarraga as the head inquisitor had a reason to exaggerate, doesn't seem to have substantiated his figures with evidence, and as I already pointed out, it's quite unlikely that Tenochtitlan was sacrificing 20,000 people a year, and if the ratio of adult vs child victims in the Huey Tzompantli, where children made up 5% of victims, are more widely applicable to other cities, are anything to go by, then 20,000 child victims a year across say the Aztec Empire would imply 500,000 total victims a year or around 1000 sacrifices per state a year not including Tenochtitlan, which would probably leave more evidence of sacrifices then we have from archeological excavations, considering that most sacrificial deposits we see at other sites have only a handful to a few dozen victims, though I guess we can't rule it out.
It's worth noting I do see some articles online claiming that Zumarraga gave a total of 72,000 sacrifices a year across the empire as a larger total rather then just for child sacrifices, but me and @cornesnenk (who helped me track down some stuff for this post) can's to find that so it seems to be spurious.
In conclusion, again:
1. You shouldn't total up sacrifices across the whole Aztec/Mexica empire because they didn't plan sacrifices across the whole empire
2. While 20,000 sacrifices a year across the empire (point 1 aside) is a plausible total, people are getting the figure from unreliable sources
3. The infographic's clothing and architecture is inaccurate
Lastly, for more info on Mesoamerican history and archeology, see my directory of some of my big posts on the topic here: xitter.cf/Majora__Z/status/20242…
